Why are Kali questions hated so much?

Question

I know that I'll probably be down-voted to oblivion, but every time I see a Kali question on this site, it gets marked as a duplicate of this question, even when it has nothing to do with that question.

So why is Kali so hated? This is supposed to be a place where you can ask and answer questions about Linux, and Kali is a Linux distro.

And are there any ways that we can improve this system so that this happens less?

How about making the question that people are redirected to more helpful or less condescending?

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Edit: this relates to the Unix & Linux Meta post: Why I closed the “Why is Kali so hard” question

Answer 1

Many, probably most, kali-linux questions on this site are extremely low quality. They show no effort, lack any useful detail, are often extremely basic, frequently trying to do things the distribution is unsuitable for, and from users who have no interest in learning or aiding others to help them learn, or some combination of those traits. That is the answer to your title question: negative associations from a number of low-quality questions from often-belligerent querents.

That has led to a general distaste for questions about it that taints even the fair questions from users who mention that they are using it. Those questions get lumped into the same bucket as soon as the tag or a hint of the distribution appears.

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Your question was not a duplicate of the supposed duplicate target, and nor are almost all of the other questions closed as a duplicate of it. That question is wilfully, cartoonishly, and insultingly caricatured. It is, frankly, not a positive element of the site at this point, let alone as something to tell someone is the same as what they asked.

Closing questions as a duplicate of that question is abusive. Voting to close as a duplicate like that is just a way of saying something that wouldn't be allowed in a comment¹, mediated by the system.

The questions are virtually never "why is it hard", they are "how do I X?". The questions might be unclear, they might be too broad, and they're often legitimate duplicates of on-topic questions with actual answers, but they're not duplicates of that. Votes that suggest otherwise are not good-faith acts². At best, it's a helpful see-also, and not a duplicate; at worst, it's just people getting off on the superiority they feel from belittling people they think are beneath them. Kali questions ought to be edited, voted upon, closed, and reopened in the same manner as other questions are (which is still likely going to result in most, but not all, of them being legitimately downvoted and closed on current form).

Generally questions closed in this way don't get reopened and the users disappear. For many of the questions, that was probably always going to be the case. On the other hand, it is also hardly strange that upon receiving that sort of welcome the asker doesn't go on to edit their question to add details such that it ends up in the reopen queue. They are driven off and the site preserves its reputation as hostile, elitist, and unwelcoming.

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Kali questions and question from people using Kali are in general on-topic here, though in many ways it would be preferable that they were categorically off-topic to the current situation. Regardless, each question ought to be addressed on its own merits.

It is likely that for many of the questions that are both about appropriate uses of Kali and from users who have made reasonable effort, this community doesn't have the most suitable expertise. For example, questions about using wireless hardware in non-standard ways using Linux tools are on-topic, but not something that general sysadmins and users are likely to have experience with. Those questions may languish regardless. It's not always clear which questions are in which camp and it's not unreasonable for someone to ask.

I think the "Why is Kali Linux so hard?" question is a problem in itself. Another formulation of it might be able to convey useful information, but as-is it is just an attractive nuisance and I don't think that's repairable. It certainly shouldn't be put forth as duplicate to other questions, and even less so to yours that already had an answer.

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¹_{I will bowdlerise that comment as "go away, unintelligent person"}

²_{Users who have reached the close-vote threshold, let alone realms far beyond, are well aware that the new question does not duplicate the old and does not have the same answer, and so we know that they are not suggesting in good faith that it does. We could believe that they merely thought it would be useful related reading and used the close-vote mechanism as a way to convey the link, but as that is not the role of a close vote the action was not offered in good faith. They could have a range of motivations within that.}

Answer 2

I'm not sure what else can be extolled about Kali questions. There was a extensive discussion about them back when @Gilles created the meta + an attempt to create a reference question to close against for questions that fit a specific type. This was that meta discussion titled: What should we do about Kali Linux questions?

@Gilles answer:

Note that I do not propose systematically closing Kali questions! Each question should be judged on its merit. But when people are clearly in way over their head and they've asked a question with the usual novice problems (unclear because they didn't explain what they were doing, they didn't copy-paste error messages, they didn't provide relevant information about their system, etc.), we could close it as a duplicate of this advice-giving question rather than letting the question rot with zero answers and zero comments or closing it as unclear.

This stated what has effectively been our policy. People adhering to it is another matter.

The entire problem with this approach has been it's left up to the discretion of the many individuals that frequent our site to try and policy this in a consistent way. Some try and deal with it as each question comes, while others see it a binary and close anything that makes the mere mention of Kali within it.

Back when we took this tact, I felt this was the best approach we could provide without completely banning Kali questions outright. There's a core group of users on this site and the toil of helping every lost soul that is trying to work through every aspect of becoming acquainted with Kali + low effort Linux question simultaneously would relegate this site to a pure help desk scenario and drive away our more adherent users.

I welcome a revisiting to this approach but it was looked at from a variety of ways then and there was really no easy solution/fix to how we opted to approach it. Perhaps a discussion may help to reinforce what the original idea/approach was trying to accomplish might help to take some of the over zealous closures?

Thanks for bringing this up.

Answer 3

The issue with Kali Linux is many of the questions have hardly anything to do with Kali specifically but are issues with using a tool or completing a task in Linux.

As user Michael Mrozek points out, there was a meta-thread that was created to address this problem. Largely, the solution developed in that post works. Some users are quick to close questions using the provided duplicate question, Why is Kali Linux so hard to set up? Why won't people help me?, to the detriment of some Kali Linux questions.

By associating a sometimes rather basic and/or poorly researched Linux question with Kali, a distribution for cyber security professionals who have Linux expertise, people get the impression that the post is not worth their time. They down vote, vote to close, or otherwise ignore these questions. There is further discussions as pointed out here, that show that Kali Linux attracts the wrong kind of crowd as well. We do not want to be assisting potential criminals or people who otherwise do not respect the community here on the Unix and Linux Stack Exchange.

To get to the point

The questions about Kali Linux posted to this site are typically low effort, not Kali Linux related, and poorly thought out. They are by newer users usually. They abandon the post relatively quickly, rarely responding to questions for clarification and sometimes are dog-piled by users who either do not like Kali Linux or think they are following the guidelines of the meta discussion. I say many of them are not Kali Linux related as they pertain solely to the use of a tool, involve a standard Linux task not specific to Kali such as driver installation, or the fact that the issue is on a Kali Linux system is inconsequential to the solution. If you need examples, just spend an extended period of time following the Kali Linux tag.

It may appear on the surface that this site is hostile to Kali Linux, however that is not truly the case. This site is "hostile" to low effort, poorly researched questions. We, collectively can improve our "behavior" to these questions and should be encouraging people to improve how to engage with the site. However, you need to actually read the duplicate question and the meta-post before you dismiss them as not duplicates.

That question is meant as a tool to point people in the right direction. They need to learn how to properly research their questions and how to better post to this site. And potentially realize that if their goal is learning Linux there is easier methods or if their goal is learning penetration testing there is far more information that they need to have a basic grasp of before they can even begin to use Kali.

In Conclusion

As a community we should come up with a better way of dealing with not only Kali Linux questions but all types of questions that are of lower quality. I agree that your question was likely unfairly closed but a new solution may not have prevented this.

I think there exists the need for a well formatted post that low-quality posts can be linked to that explains the need for additional context and how to better use the site, ask better questions, etc. How we go about that should be up to everyone.

Answer 4

Mr Google's fault !

Try to ask google a kali question, superuser, stackoverflow and unix & Linux (and maybe serverfault) will come as first link.

If you scroll down google's list a little more, you'll find link like doc.kali.org or forum.kali.org where you'll find many FAQs about booting/installing USB/external disk/whatever.

People who really want to install kali will navigate past first google's link, find their way to *.kali.org and follow detailed instructions given there by kali's natives. If installation goes well, or not so well, they stay in *.kali.org galaxy to ask there question and should the question be well asked there, we don't ear about it.

Gilles's generic answer is a good thing. But I agree that some are too eager to close questions as a duplicate when they shouldn't. I have no stats, but I would says 5% to 10% are wrongly closed.

This means 90% of kali questions are not good enough.

But we don't hate kali per se, it's Mr Google fault for sending the wannabes kali users here.

Answer 5

To begin with, Kali questions aren't hated more than questions on other topics, it is just that for some unexplainable reason many novice users pick Kali as a desktop distribution, despite the fact that Kali is a special purpose distribution (built on top of Debian). Yes, you can use Kali as a regular desktop distro; for instance, I do that - without the slightest trace of a problem - because I am too lazy to launch another Kali VM whenever I need the pentest related tools.

Now, let me counter-ask: Why is the current handling of Kali-questions a problem? I agree, this is not the nicest way to deal with this and probably not in line with the Code of Conduct which asks for answers that are inclusive, welcoming, don't make anybody feel bad etc. etc.

Yet, since the days of Usenet it is known that (a) no matter how much effort you put in it, no matter to which detail you explain, no matter how polite and patient you are, there will be always someone who will not be satisfied, and this trait seems to get worse - some kind of users seem to believe that SE entitles them to unlimited free consulting services - and (b) as was pointed out by other posters, Kali questions are empirically quite likely to have abysmal quality.

So: What added value should an "improved" treatment of Kali-related questions show? In the end, you will have no more than a nicer version of do your homework, go read the docs and leave us alone until you have proved to have some competence.

I agree, though, that a reference to the official Kali docs would be very adequate.

Answer 6

I propose a solution:

How about editing the Why is Kali Linux so hard to set up? Why won't people help me? question, to show how to properly write a question, some general help/advice, and some links to sites that would possibly be more helpful? Before now, (and before actually looking at the "why" question), it wasn't clear that that was a question set up to help people. Maybe the question could be edited to go something along the lines of:

Title: How to format your question better, and some general help

(I couldn't think of a better title, but I think that the title Why is Kali Linux so hard to set up? Why won't people help me? should definitely be changed)

Content: You have been directed here because of several possible reasons:

1: Your question wasn't very clear or wasn't written well (was a low quality post)

Suggestions or links of what to do to make it a better or clearer post

2: You have a problem, and am not sure what it is or how to explain it

Below this question is some general Kali advice that may help you with any questions/problems that you have

3: You have a question/questions that won't/can't be properly answered on Unix & Linux Stack Exchange

Here are some links to official Kali Linux forums/FAQs:

docs.kali.org; forums.kali.org; any other useful/dedicated Kali links

I think that this would greatly benefit people compared to the current redirection question of

Why is Kali Linux so hard to set up? Why won't people help me?

I've installed Kali Linux, or I'm trying to install it. Why is it so hard? Why doesn't it recognize my hardware? Why do I need to set up so many things manually? Why can't I install the applications I want to use? Why don't tutorials written for other distributions work? Help! Why won't people help me? Why is Linux so hard?

What are your opinions on this?